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Mormon Matters - (Dan Wotherspoon ARCHIVE)

Mormon Matters was a weekly podcast that explored Mormon current events, pop culture, politics and spirituality. Dan retired from Mormon Matters Podcast in 2019 and now hosts a podcast called "Latter-day Faith" that can be found here: http://podcast.latterdayfaith.org/
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Now displaying: February, 2018
Feb 28, 2018

Issues surrounding sexual, physical, and emotional harassment and abuse, or persons not feeling safe in certain institutional environments, have achieved fresh attention in the past several months through the bravery of women and others sharing their stories. Neither the White House nor Mormonism has been exempt from new attention to these ugly accusations, as former staff secretary Rob Porter, a Latter-day Saint, was forced to resign over claims of emotional and physical abuse leveled by his two ex-wives. Tying Mormonism into this arena even further, each stated that they had counseled with their Mormon bishops about Porter's treatment of them in their marriage and received less-than-helpful counsel. They didn't feel safe and only after a while did one of the women's bishop encourage her to file for a temporary retraining order against Porter.

Issues surrounding sexual, physical, and emotional harassment and abuse, or of persons not feeling safe in certain institutional environments, have received fresh attention in the past several months because of the bravery of women and others sharing their stories, leading to protests and the rise of several movements designed to educate about and mitigate future harm. Neither the United States government nor Mormonism has been exempt from new attention to these ugly accusations, as former White House staff secretary Rob Porter, a Latter-day Saint, was forced to resign over claims by his two ex-wives that he emotionally and physically abused the. Tying Mormonism into this arena even deeper, each stated that she had counseled with her Mormon bishop about Porter's treatment of her in their marriage and received less-than-helpful counsel. They didn't feel safe, and yet only after a while did one of the women's bishop encourage her to file for a temporary retraining order against Porter.

These issues of harassment, intimidation, and abuse are pervasive, with Mormonism being no exception. And stories and examples of Latter-day Saints reporting abuse and working to influence structural changes in Church policies and procedures are getting increasing attention. Mormonism puts bishops and other leaders in closed-door rooms with children, teens, and adults, girls and boys, women and men. It instructs them to interview members for various reasons: do they meet requirements (spiritual and moral) for participation in ordinances, are they worthy to receive certain advancements or callings, and more. Members are also encouraged to seek out these leaders when they want to talk about troubling situations in their lives, ranging from spiritual malaise or crisis, to interpersonal differences with others, to issues in family life, to feeling a need to confess and repent of certain behaviors/sins they may have fallen into. All of these types of interaction have the potential to become very personal in nature. And there are many accounts in which such personal situations have gone badly. At times leaders pry and ask about details that go beyond what they are instructed to do, resulting in the interview and counseling situations to move into unhelpful and potentially quite harmful areas. The structure of these meetings is ripe for trouble, and it often is found. What can we as Latter-day Saints do to mitigate against these problems and the harm that can follow from them? What can the church do, structurally and via training of leaders and members, to help lessen the chances for damaging interactions? 

In this episode, three engaged, informed, and experienced Latter-day SaintsJulie de Azevedo Hanks, Ronda Callister, and Tim Birtjoin Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon for a discussion of the larger issues surrounding abuse and its prevalence, the systemic and personal causes that often feed into its occurrences, and, most of all, what we as individuals, parents, teachers, leaders, and church members can do to become informed and more alert to situations before or very early on as they begin to go wrong. This issue must come into our consciousness more than it ever has before. How can we be proactive in keeping ourselves and others, as well as the institution of the LDS Church, safe from these dangers and the harm they bring about?

Listen in! Take notes! There is much in this episode that will be helpful for you as you accept responsibility to be change agents in your own lives and within the structures and practices of the church.

Feb 20, 2018

James and Judith McConkie have taken a deep dive into something relatively few Mormon scholars and teachers have researched: the historical Jesus. Latter-day Saints have been doing scripture studies for years, and are in the past few decades beginning to contribute their own studies to the growing body of work on the Bible, but only a handful have attempted to dive into the vast literature on the subject of just who Jesus of Nazareth was in his time and setting, studies that seek to understand his life and teachings in the context of his ministry in what is now Palestine and among a colonized people ruled from Rome through the cooperation of many Jewish leaders. One result of their many years of study to discover for themselves and, initially, their family, is a new book, Whom Say Ye That I Am?: Lessons from the Jesus of Nazareth (Greg Kofford Books, 2018).

In this episode, the McConkies join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon for a discussion of the book, literature on Jesus within Mormonism, discoveries they made that surprised or inspired them, and much more. Specifically, they focus on several areas discussed within the work: Jesus and his interactions with women and (with and about) family, his teachings and views on suffering in this world, the systematic injustice during his time and teachings about the "kingdom of God" he was attempting to usher into being, and finally discipleship and covenanting. Be warned: This is a terrific discussion that is sure to tease you into buying this book and many others mentioned herein! This is fascinating literature and a rich and wonderful area to dive into ourselves, one that yields many good dividends for our own spiritual walks.

Feb 20, 2018

James and Judith McConkie have taken a deep dive into something relatively few Mormon scholars and teachers have researched: the historical Jesus. Latter-day Saints have been doing scripture studies for years, and are in the past few decades beginning to contribute their own studies to the growing body of work on the Bible, but only a handful have attempted to dive into the vast literature on the subject of just who Jesus of Nazareth was in his time and setting, studies that seek to understand his life and teachings in the context of his ministry in what is now Palestine and among a colonized people ruled from Rome through the cooperation of many Jewish leaders. One result of their many years of study to discover for themselves and, initially, their family, is a new book, Whom Say Ye That I Am?: Lessons from the Jesus of Nazareth (Greg Kofford Books, 2018).

In this episode, the McConkies join Mormon Matters host Dan Wotherspoon for a discussion of the book, literature on Jesus within Mormonism, discoveries they made that surprised or inspired them, and much more. Specifically, they focus on several areas discussed within the work: Jesus and his interactions with women and (with and about) family, his teachings and views on suffering in this world, the systematic injustice during his time and teachings about the "kingdom of God" he was attempting to usher into being, and finally discipleship and covenanting. Be warned: This is a terrific discussion that is sure to tease you into buying this book and many others mentioned herein! This is fascinating literature and a rich and wonderful area to dive into ourselves, one that yields many good dividends for our own spiritual walks.

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

449–461: Old Testament--Teaching and Study Resources

 

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode (#449) about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 14, 2018

These episodes are encore releases of seven different Mormon Matters podcast show from the last time the LDS Sunday School Gospel Doctrine curriculum covered the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible. We're late in putting these in front of you again. So sorry, but better late than never? I hope you'll feel so!

These releases consist of an overview episode about teaching this text within the church, and features Jana Riess, Philip Barlow, and Carrie Mills.

The others are a group of six different episodes (some multi-part) with panelists who we came to call "The Genesis Team." In them, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and Father Tom Roberts take us through in depth discussions of the key stories in the first 25 chapters of Genesis: the creation, flood, tower of Babel, Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah, Binding of Isaac, and the saga of Isaac, Rebekah, Esau, and the transformation of Jacob. 

Whether you're a Gospel Doctrine teacher, active class participant, or simply an interested reader hoping for more insight into this most interesting and mischaracterized set of scriptures, this series is a great resource! Enjoy them (maybe it will be again)!

Feb 7, 2018

This episode is a supplement to the previous two-parter on "sustaining" within Mormonism--concentrating especially on times when we find ourselves in some sort of tension with leaders or those in callings whose ideas, teaching style, demeanor, or general approach to the gospel fail to connect positively with us. It features the powerful spiritual teacher Thomas Wirthlin McConkie introducing and leading us through a "shadow practice" exercise. Shadow work is a path to self-discovery as well as loving kindness and compassion, but it begins in disturbance, tension, something unsettled, the appearance of negative emotions whenever we encounter a certain person or situation. Because we typically don't want to feel such things, we will often supress them or attempt to ignore them. Shadow work takes the opposite approach. We lean into the feelings, the negative energy, explore and name them, hone in on the exact things that trigger this negativity and let our minds and emotions have have free rein for a while. And then we take a final step.

Find out what it is.

Shadow work is a practice that will help us see others and ourselves much more clearly, allowing wonderful things begin to unfold. 

Feb 7, 2018

One of Mormonism's most attractive features is the wonderful chance all members are given to both formally and informally "sustain" each other as we play various roles within the community. We officially (and for church records) sustain by the raise of our hand various persons in their callings, but more importantly in that way also pledge on our part to be supportive of this sister or brother as they serve in these capacities. Hopefully we whole-heartedly mean this as we "signify by the uplifted hand" and truly feel comfortable with them in their new position and will do our best to support them in ways they may ask of us, and that when it comes up for us to do so to also offer prayers or other forms of encouragement that might strengthen them. Difficulties can arise at times, however, especially when persons are called to leadership positions that affect our communal lives in sometimes dramatic ways. For many of us, there are high stakes involved when members of bishoprics or various presidencies and other positions of leadership are called. Perhaps this person now tasked to serve in this way is someone we've had past conflicts with, someone who feels too rigid or too . . . (fill in the blank here), or someone whose personal conduct has led us to question the inspiration behind their calling. What should we do then? How can we "sustain" them? Does it mean we have to agree with this person? Obey her or his directives? Be loyal and supportive in all things she or he might ask? Can "sustaining" also mean letting them know of our feelings of discomfort with them or something they are teaching or asking?

With the recent changes in the Church's First Presidency and reassignments within the Council of Twelve Apostles, many persons within the church have had to wrestle fresh with how they might sustain President Nelson and President Oaks, especially, in their new (and more prominent) capacities given certain controversial teachings or programs or policies that have been given or spearheaded by them in the past. At their next temple recommend interview or call during a ward conference for sustaining votes for the church's top leadership, how can those who feel these hesitations about those called act with integrity as they are asked if they sustain them as "prophets, seers, and revelators"? Can they "sustain" them while also speaking up in church meetings or other circles about their disagreements with their ideas or directives?

"Sustaining" is an interesting topic within Mormonism, for sure! Thankfully, four wonderful Latter-day Saints agreed to come on Mormon Matters to talk about many of the complexities of sustaining, supporting, and conscientiously acting with regard to leaders and others with whom we may disagree or not enjoy. Caleb Jones follows up his participation in the previous episode on the new church leadership changes by being on again, and he is joined by the wonderful Claudia Bushman, Jenne Alderks, and Christian Harrison. All contribute terrific insights on the topic at many levels, including their own personal experiences wrestling with "What does it mean, exactly, to sustain?" 

Feb 7, 2018

One of Mormonism's most attractive features is the wonderful chance all members are given to both formally and informally "sustain" each other as we play various roles within the community. We officially (and for church records) sustain by the raise of our hand various persons in their callings, but more importantly in that way also pledge on our part to be supportive of this sister or brother as they serve in these capacities. Hopefully we whole-heartedly mean this as we "signify by the uplifted hand" and truly feel comfortable with them in their new position and will do our best to support them in ways they may ask of us, and that when it comes up for us to do so to also offer prayers or other forms of encouragement that might strengthen them. Difficulties can arise at times, however, especially when persons are called to leadership positions that affect our communal lives in sometimes dramatic ways. For many of us, there are high stakes involved when members of bishoprics or various presidencies and other positions of leadership are called. Perhaps this person now tasked to serve in this way is someone we've had past conflicts with, someone who feels too rigid or too . . . (fill in the blank here), or someone whose personal conduct has led us to question the inspiration behind their calling. What should we do then? How can we "sustain" them? Does it mean we have to agree with this person? Obey her or his directives? Be loyal and supportive in all things she or he might ask? Can "sustaining" also mean letting them know of our feelings of discomfort with them or something they are teaching or asking?

With the recent changes in the Church's First Presidency and reassignments within the Council of Twelve Apostles, many persons within the church have had to wrestle fresh with how they might sustain President Nelson and President Oaks, especially, in their new (and more prominent) capacities given certain controversial teachings or programs or policies that have been given or spearheaded by them in the past. At their next temple recommend interview or call during a ward conference for sustaining votes for the church's top leadership, how can those who feel these hesitations about those called act with integrity as they are asked if they sustain them as "prophets, seers, and revelators"? Can they "sustain" them while also speaking up in church meetings or other circles about their disagreements with their ideas or directives?

"Sustaining" is an interesting topic within Mormonism, for sure! Thankfully, four wonderful Latter-day Saints agreed to come on Mormon Matters to talk about many of the complexities of sustaining, supporting, and conscientiously acting with regard to leaders and others with whom we may disagree or not enjoy. Caleb Jones follows up his participation in the previous episode on the new church leadership changes by being on again, and he is joined by the wonderful Claudia Bushman, Jenne Alderks, and Christian Harrison. All contribute terrific insights on the topic at many levels, including their own personal experiences wrestling with "What does it mean, exactly, to sustain?" 

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